When Veterans Divorce | Ep 62 (Part 2)

What if the best way to win custody… is to wait?

This episode flips the script on what most veteran parents expect—and reveals what family court actually wants to see when it comes to veteran divorce and custody.

In Part 2 of my conversation with Hon. Mark Johnson (Ret.), we move from trauma to the tricky terrain of divorce and parenting after PTSD. If Part 1 was about what went wrong, this one’s about how to start making it right.

Whether you're a veteran struggling with post-combat stress and facing divorce, or the co-parent trying to hold it all together, this episode is full of clarity, compassion, and a clear plan forward.

In this episode:

·       What family court really wants to see before granting custody

·       How to set up parenting plans that account for trauma history

·       The custody checklist every military family should read

·       When it’s time to lower your timeshare—and why that’s not losing

·       Why treatment first = better outcomes for everyone

·       A mock court speech that every lawyer should borrow

About Mark Johnson: Hon. Mark Johnson (Ret.) served as a Superior Court Judge and Colonel in the U.S. Army. He’s a decorated Iraq War veteran, former Veteran’s Court judge, and the author of Scars and Strife, a novel inspired by real stories of combat trauma and recovery.

RESOURCES: 

Mark Johnson's book: Scars and Strife – https://a.co/d/38sod6z
Download Custody Checklist: https://mailchi.mp/2939c428981d/mediation-resources
Kelly’s Book: Victim Is Not Your Name – https://a.co/d/e4VguRk
Legal & Mediation Help: https://saperelawfirm.com
Instagram: https://instagram.com/saperelawfirm
Facebook: https://facebook.com/saperelawfirm

Transcript

2:01

So you've seen veterans with some significant PTSD issues. We've talked a lot about that. And the substance abuse, not all of them have substance abuse, but you've seen them recover and regain the trust of the other parent and their children and they're able to go back and co-parent. Or parent just even to the ability to parent. Can you share some stories of those that you've seen that have regained that ability to be parents? I've seen miracles. I've seen vets I thought Lord, this guy needs a lot of help. He's never get clean. I've said that, and I'm sorry to say I, some people I would almost like triage and I was, I'd be wrong. The more I keep thinking about it, then I think of another vet, another vet. But, I can think of several veterans who, often senior guys who their wives didn't trust them anymore. They had kids say five to 15 and they were dangerous. And, and let me just say this. One of the things I will say, I'm almost a little leery about talking about violence and PTSD. The vast majority of vets with post-traumatic stress disorder are not violent. There is a higher level of violence, but you're still talking than the average population for someone with severe PTSD. But you're talking about less than 10%. You know, be prone to any acts of violence. It's what, what's something like about 7% or something and very low. And, and, you know, I, I am, I'm aware of old those old movies, like, I'm probably dating myself here, but there was a movie with Jane Fonda, John Voight and Bruce Dern called "Coming Home." And you know, John Voight's the good looking vet, who's peaceful and against the war, and Bruce Dern is the Marine Corps captain, who's got PTSD. They make you hate him. And the reason I'm saying this is a lot of times vets feel like, people want to say "Thank you for your service," and then they don't want you around. I wouldn't hire you, but I wouldn't, you know? I'll give you 10% off your breakfast. Like I said, I'm a little leery because I've seen miracles. I've known hundreds of vets who they were doing really bad. They got out. usually male had a couple combat tours. They got out, they lost of service, they lost their sense of purpose. They start using drugs or alcohol and then they commit crimes. They beat up somebody, they get in a fight. And I've seen all many veterans that are now, those same people are reunited with family. I don't expect any spouse to hang out with some of these guys to hang in there. But I saw a lot of them do and they say, you, I got my husband back. Or, but I've seen divorces. But where these two have now, these couples have now become. They're friends. Yeah. And they co-parent. There's a lot of people that can help. And they can get better. They can get better. They can have good relationships with their kids. They could have everything that they've wanted . It's very possible, but they got to get down there to the treatment. Right. You know, I would tell any vet who's having issues, anybody who is got a spouse or some significant other, or anybody they know, maybe a neighbor. Call, get ahold of the VA, contact me. There's so many people lined up to help these veterans right now. For if you're a vet who's suffering now is probably the best time in history. Well, here's what's interesting because, if someone with military service has then gotten themselves into trouble with the law related to these issues or because of it or whatever. Right. Yeah. Close enough as you say. Yeah. They may not have had domestic violence in the home. But, if the act was bad enough, the criminal act, then it just throws the whole family thing into jeopardy. So now I imagine they find their entire lives are in chaos. Yeah. And so I think, you know, the ability to go to somebody like you, go to Greg Coker, others that are the support people that are out there. And they are out there. Um, is it, yeah. There's this immediate issue here of I did this thing over here. If you fix this, the get to the root issue, then everything it hit on the collateral damage has a chance of getting better too. Would you agree with that? Yes, If I had one problem on the bench, it's my mouth sometimes got ahead of my brain. But I remember, you know I'd be talking to some veteran and we'd be hearing stuff and I said. Once or twice. Look, I, I said, you gotta slow down. I said, I'm getting a headache hearing about all your problems. We gotta start taking them one by one. And combating them and get you past these things. Yeah. But you know. They're going through a divorce. They got a criminal problem, they got a restraining order. They don't have a car anymore. They don't have anywhere to live. We're ordering them to do stuff and they don't have a car to get to these meetings. So then we have to work on that. And some, sometimes, you know, the problem, some of these people, you know, you get the choice, go to court or get high. And I tell you, sometimes they got so many problems that getting high starts looking like a pretty good option. Yeah, right. Because it's just completely overwhelming. So, okay, so what I want to do right now is I want to hand you, you know, we've, we've talked about this one. Oh, So here's what we're looking at. This is this little checklist, and what I want to tell the listing audience is we're do a link to this checklist in the show notes and in all of the social media posts. But this is called the Dos and Don'ts of Joint Custody, and it's the must have checklist to protect your parental relationships during divorce. So really what this is, is as family attorneys, we obviously see when people do it wrong. And if you're in the middle of a custody dispute or you are about to be, this is like the main things that help the situation, what the court looks for, what we argue about. It helps your children win really in the long run. So what I want you to do, Mark, is we're look at this custody checklist. And there's four main areas. And my question is, this is something that, you know, somebody who's not dealing with heightened issues, like somebody who's been through military services probably has this is for kind of the average bear. Okay, let's call it the average bear. So if we were to say to a veteran who's having some level of trauma, some level of PTSD. Yeah. I mean, we're not talking like the most extreme cases necessarily, but just some level. Right. And it's contributed to the decline of the marriage.. On one way or the other. Let's look through the checklist. Which items here do we think someone who is right now experiencing those issues, no treatment, will have a hard time with. You're asking PTSD, but I could tell you just about all these guys are using something to deal with it. So I notice don't drink alcohol or do drugs around your children. You know, sometimes some of these guys, they, okay, the kids are in bed. What's the harm? If you want to, if you got an issue with alcohol or drugs, if you want to find a reason, you'll always find it. But I do like a lot of this because I tell you, when I was in the military, they got a checklist for anything. I went down and inspected a helicopter and I don't know a damn thing about helicopters, but I had my checklist. Okay, where's your blank? Right? So the checklist is great. I do think it depends on the level of PTSD and I mean, because like I said, I was, you know, I was dealing with nightmares and that I think I could do all these things. I wouldn't call my, the VA gave me 30%, but some guys are a hundred percent, I think they, until they get a lot of their symptoms in order, they're probably have a hard time complying with any of these things. I mean, let's, let's look at 'em 'cause the audience can't see it right now. The first one is under the plan ahead section and we say don't move out without a clear plan for custody or time sharing. Which implicates or indicates that you're talking, you're talking. Right, and so that might be a problem based on what we've talked about today you know, especially if we have emotional disconnect and all that. You're a mediator, so you bring people to do a great job bringing people together. I'll tell you, maybe I have a bad view of divorce, but it's like, do people ever communicate? Well, just it's maybe they need you there in, in the middle. That is such a good point. Let me tell you, the people who communicate well are usually not going through divorce for extremely acrimonious reasons. Like unfaithfulness, severe drug issues. I'm not saying you did, but. And other people are just, they're just fight to fight. But there are people who kind of say, okay, let's just, we've been living as roommates for a long time, so let's just agree to... Yeah, no, I can see. I get that. So, so you just. See some of that and then a lot of times people will learn this stuff after they get beat up a little bit down at the family court. So yeah, no, you're not the only one. It's more positive in mediation. Okay. So someone who might be having some military service related issues the talking piece might be hard. What about establish a work workable timeshare schedule with the other parent before you move out? Same thing? Yeah. Yeah. I think I, I think the same thing. I think the focus on with PTSD and things like that is the same with people who've got alcoholism or they're drug addicts, you got to focus on that first. You know? So a lot of these programs, they'll teach you to focus on that even before your family. Because you're not worth a crap to anybody if you're using and you're an addict. I guess it depends on on the level, but if you've got severe PTSD, these guys walk around, they literally see things that aren't there. And with apologies to my fellow veterans. I think you need to get that worked out before you start talking about taking on the responsibility of say, 50% of the time with your children. So when you look at this checklist, you're see what, you know, kind of what everybody in the normal world expects people to do. And even if you don't, you're not someone who was in the military with issues, believe me, there are people out there with issues that can't do half of this stuff because they just can't exercise some common sense. And get control of their emotions. But here's one way we handle this. So to your point about get treatment first. Some parents who are having these issues may come back and say, well, if I don't get 50-50 or I don't get at least 40% of the time, then the other spouse is get this huge amount of child support and I don't want them to get one penny more, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But to your point, you're saying, listen, get treatment first. And if you and I were in the same room, Mark, I would come alongside you and say, as the divorce lawyer and mediator, Judge Johnson is right. You get treatment first, even if it means you're going pay a little bit more support for in the short time term, right? Because you can't be a decent parent. And so in the long run it's going hurt your kids. And here's how we address that. We go to court on the first hearing, or if we're in mediation, we stipulate to the other parent having a larger timeshare because the parent with the problem is going to go get help. Okay.. And so first of all, you gotta swallow your pride. Second of all, you have to admit you need some help. Right? And third of all, you have to say, this is the path forward for my children to have a really great dad or a really great mom, because I can't be that right now. So we enter into an agreement or ask for the court for an order for a timeshare that's maybe 70% to, let's call it mom, 30% to dad, because, your Honor, and let me pitch it. Let me pitch it to you. You're my family law judge. Okay. Your Honor, we're here on a support, and timeshare custody timeshare visitation motion. My client has seen some significant service in the military. He's been diagnosed with PTSD, he's got 45% diagnosis. And some of the things mom is complaining about in her motion we know is pretty much directly related to the issues. And so he's committed and is enrolled in treatment right now. And what we know is that he cannot exercise more than 20% timeshare, or maybe it needs to be supervised. I don't know what's happened in the past. Right. But we'd ask that you would enter an order today. And we're, we're in agreement with the 20%. Yeah. With me putting it on the record, your Honor, that he has entered treatment, and what I'd ask you to do is make that a very temporary order pending the outcome of treatment. And could we please have a return date in three months or four months so that we can come back and I get a report from the, from his, his medical providers to give you a little report on how he's doing in treatment and we revisit the issue of increasing his Yeah, timeshare. What do you say your Honor. Okay. I'd say first off, you're brilliant, Ms. Bennett. And then secondly say, say then secondly, I'd say granted. You've got experience and you've got the kind of personality to deal with this. Trust me you know my most family law experience came from my own divorce. I see very few lawyers who do what you just did. You see, it's just this bickering and fighting. And these quick little things and picking up files two minutes before. I mean, that kind of, something like that is so reasonable. I can't imagine a judge saying no to it. And you're weaving in there all sympathetic things about the person's background. You know, these guys, I man, I say guys and women with post-traumatic stress disorder, they're in a lot of pain. Yeah. And if you can convey that to a judge so they understand it, but as long as these, you know, they're, they're working on it. They're trying, they want to get better. Yeah, granted. Hey, before we get back to the show, would you like me to serve as your personal mediator? You know, where I help you and your spouse or your soon to be ex navigate some pretty important family law issues, deciding things about your kids, how to split up your assets, your debts... all outside the chaos of the court. How do we do that? We do it faster, way more economically and with absolute civility and confidentiality. If you want to know more, go ahead and hit that link below and you'll find out how you can connect with me and we can talk about what's most important to you and your future. Now, back to the show. Thank you. Yeah. Woo. But yeah, and really the, that's the, a good family law attorney, when there's a tough situation like this is going to come in and I always teach as I'm mentoring my attorneys in my firm, I teach them, you go into the family court with a solution to the problem you've presented to the court. Because, just like, like you Mark in handling these crazy calendars with more than a hundred cases on them, there's not enough judges and and I tell clients when they come in for the first time, I'm like, do you know how many judges were short in this county? Over 75? And that means all our judges are just they, it's more cases than are humanly possible to really give it to. Yeah. So I teach my attorneys. Go in with a proposed solution because you got an overloaded judge who honestly, they're trying to do their best, but they don't have time to really delve into all of the nuances of the case. They're look at your file for maybe six minutes and you're get about six to eight minutes of airtime on any given outside of trial. If you can come in with the solution. Right. You, those are the attorneys who really do the best for the clients, in my humble opinion on that, on that deal. Yeah, I don't, I don't, people don't understand how busy judges are. You know, like I got in criminal cases, I'd get a motion and you know, be a Romero motion. That was to strike a strike so it would lessen a punishment. You know, but I'm like, here's the motion. Skip all the boiler plate, which you're always giving me, and then go, right, okay, what's the facts? And, yeah, you don't, I don't have the time to read all, all the background law. Right. Related. That brought us to this point, judge. Just give me the bottom line. Right. What's the law and why should I grant it? You know. But sometimes I'd say to lawyers, you know, counsel, you've been going on for five minutes and I still don't understand how you want me to rule. Tell me how you want me to rule. Yeah. And then, okay, now I got something. But you just did it perfectly. Yeah. Give 'em a solution. Yeah. Makes you feel good as a judge. Judges want, I want to feel good about what I'm doing up there when I was on the bench. When you have a crush of cases and sometimes you just can't get through them all, and I'll, I'll tell you for me, the, the most enlightening part of my career is when I go down and serve as a pro tem, a judge pro tem, temporary judges. That's, yeah. You know what we do to help the court out when judges are out on vacation or whatever. So they'll bring in experienced attorneys to do that. So me sitting on the family law bench and I've done trials for the court, all of that stuff, is so enlightening because what do I see? I see the crush. I mean, I kind of know up here what it is, but I don't know in here until I sit on the bench and go, how are we supposed to get through all of this? Yeah. And so sometimes you miss it 'cause you're in a hurry. You know?'cause you just can't consume it all. Yeah. And so the reality is, I think it's a relief to a bench officer to have someone coming in. And it may not be the right solution, but at least it's a path. It's an, it's a place to start. Yeah. Yeah, no, I, you know, I see somebody like Kelly, come, and I say, thank God, thank you for answering my prayers. Kelly's here. I mean, let's face it, some people aren't very good lawyers. You're like a crack crack lawyer, but I, oh, she's, she's like make my life, you make the judge's life easier. That should be the key because you're more likely to rule if I understand a clear reason and what the ruling is. Right. And that there's law behind it, but Yeah. Yeah. But that's great. And especially in family court because... I think relating it to these vets. You know, these, as I view it, these folks, these people are heroes. And if you, you convey that to the judge, most judges, I mean, are going to want to, I would assume, you know, give, give credit for that. Yeah. Or understand that in their ruling. Well, what I will say about this is we're make this custody checklist available. Yeah, and you can click on the link to it and it's just, it's good information to know because this is what sets you up to, you know, be in good stead. And it's not bad parenting advice for everybody, whether divorce or not, you know? Yeah, that's an interesting point too, but it's true. Yeah. Pick up your kids and drop 'em off on time. Respect your, the other parents' time and help with the homework and don't send them off with dirty clothes. Um, well. I want to look now as we kind of bring this conversation to a close at your book. So let me hold this up there, the camera So Mark, here's your book. This is Scars and Strife. It is a a fiction novel, but it's so good. It's hard to put this book down, I have to tell you. What I want to do is, for the first five people who contact me at my office, you can email me through the show, whatever, right? We'll put the link there. The first five people who contact me and say, give me Mark's book, give me the judge's book. I will mail them and I will come over to you and bother you and get five signed copies. I will give it to 'em as a gift. So let's start with why did you write this book? Scars and Strife? You know, that's interesting because I, answered that question and sometimes I'm not always that consistent in my answers, but I think there's probably a thread that, you know, I spent 28 years in uniform. I was active in reserve and I was, you know, I did a tour in Iraq. I was a battalion commander, a company commander. I had a lot of people under me and retired as a colonel in 2013, and I had just had been on the Veterans Court for a year at that when I retired and spent a lot of years helping vets. I've seen a lot of the pain they're in, and I guess I wanted to do something to honor these veterans. I'm not... trust me, I ain't making any money on this thing. But, you know, I got, I started in 2016 to 2018. I went to school got a Master's in Fine Arts and Creative Writing. I wanted to tell a lot of the stories of these vets and, you know, I probably created a little bit of a Superman. I created an army ranger who's got 13 combat tours. The problem is these guys, they're very tough and you see a lot of people getting killed going off to war. And then, you know, then you kind of see these countries handed back to, these a-holes that you were fighting. How do you think these Afghanistan veterans feel? Their buddies get killed over there. They're over there for years. And then you just you move out, you hand the place back and we do it again. And we, this is not exactly the first time we've done that., I meet with a group of Vietnam vets probably twice a month. They're still angry, feeling that they were betrayed by their government. And so, and then I see the pain these vets are in. All these, they're in a lot of pain. So I wrote, I really, I wrote this to honor them. I like to write, I wanted to put down a lot of my feelings how I felt. And so you wrapped a lot of that into this main character, Randy Andrews. He comes back, he's a hero, but wife doesn't like him anymore. He's alienated from his kids. She's divorcing him. He doesn't have a job. And suddenly there, here's a guy that we were sending off to war and he is got nothing. And so his solution is to flee to Mexico, where in a seedy tourist bar, he meets Matilda, a cougar who's kept there as a tourist draw. He bonds with the big cat and starts the road to healing. It's great. It's a fascinating story, but it bakes in all of these elements that you've seen that you've personally experienced as well. And I think to your point, we're not trying to unnecessarily criticize the government, but the reality is people who have been in military service have paid a price. There is a price to these wars, and the price is way beyond what's on the news. It's way beyond the economics of a war. Like you say, they've seen their buddies killed, they've had to kill, they've had the traumas like the fellow who had shot the kids unknowingly. So that feeling of all of the price that was paid to gain the ground in that country instability. And when that just, it seemingly goes away overnight, I can't imagine the messaging. Well, it's just a, you feel like it's such a waste and I will criticize the government. You don't have to, but I mean, for crying out loud, we keep on getting into these things and it's easy to say, let's go to war as long as somebody else is doing the fighting. And a lot of these guys are in a lot of pain, and I love 'em. I mean, let me tell you, I've got 19-year-old, 18-19 year olds on the gun above my head on the saw or the machine gun. Who they're risking their lives to protect you. Yeah. Sometimes you wonder what a 19-year-old can do. And if you hang out here in the states, you'll, you really wonder. These kids are amazing. I trust my life to 'em and they risk their life to protect me. And it's like, how do you ever get over that if you know, I used to tell people this in court. I had a bias in favor of vets and I will plead guilty to the end of time. And I wanted to write something that kind of told the story and made somebody, people could see just how much pain these people in, because you know, they come back to the states too, and you got like a, you got a society that has no, virtually very little of the society understands what these vets have been going through. And they can't possibly understand because they're not educated. Most of us don't have any military in our families anymore. Yeah. It's not as common. But what's so beautiful about this book Yeah. And jarring at the same time in this book is that it's written very raw. It's very real. But what it does is it helps you understand as an outsider looking in. Oh my gosh, is this really what they go through? And I think you're here to say, yeah, it really is what they go through. So. coming to the end of our discussion. It's really been I think a great discussion today. So for any military folks out there listening or their families, what would your, the biggest message you, you'd want to convey to them in the context of all that we've talked about? Look, reach out. There are so many people that want to help you. You gotta reach out. I'll talk to my veterans. I love you guys and gals, and I tell you, if you're sitting in your garage drinking every night, if you're sitting there getting high all the time, if you're using methamphetamine and you got demons, just get the help. There's people like me. We're just waiting to help you, you folks, and you will find forgiveness, freedom, acceptance. You know, I know a lot of vets, I know a lot of you probably think you did things that you can't be forgiven for. Now you can, a lot of, you know, we, a lot of us have been over in those places. We've seen what it's like and you're human, but you gotta, you gotta let us know let us get, help you. That's what we want., You're like the perfect lawyer. It's like you help people. Okay. But I mean, I just mean you're compassionate. You help people and you're like kick ass in court and as a lawyer and, and and I appreciate what you do for our veterans too, because they need help and your, your sensitivity to it, because a lot of people just don't, I don't think they kind of don't care, you know? Anyway, so thank you very much. Beautiful sentiments. Your heart for veterans and people really in general shows. Thank you Mark Johnson for loving on them. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for your bold leadership in this area.'cause I know it's not easy, so the courage that it takes and I think you've made a big difference today. So when I tell you thank you for your service. I mean inside and out. And I mean, for the price you've paid. And you paid it for a lot of us, so thank you. Mark Johnson. Oh, God bless. Thank you. All right.